No more ideas?
How about phenolic plenum spacers?
What about the rotors themselves.....they're a big source of heat generation due to their motion thrashing the air around.
That last mod would only be for the hardcore,adventurous types.
I CAN tell you that the GM factory engineers had a GEN 3 running neck and neck with a stock Gen 5 at the proving grounds.
Apparently they ported the 'charger outlet to let the little GEN 3 run more efficiently.
I know this because a good friend of mine was one of the powertrain engineers that worked on developing the GP's.

_________________
2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

No comments on all this stuff?
Oh well,at least you're reading and viewing.

One more thought:

What about some form of launch boost control to prevent excessive tire spin?

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2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

The cars already have traction control with the BBV solenoid which allows the computer to control boost somewhat for launches.

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00 GTP Daytona

I understand that [thanks for pointing it out anyway,I do appreciate the input].
I look at the short times for the S/C'd cars and wonder if there isn't a better way?
I've tried turning off the T/Control on my non-S/C car and I get better response from the throttle,but if it spins the car turns into a dog.
Here's what happens:
Give it gas.
Tires break loose.
Car's computer cuts back the throttle until traction is regained [light comes on for traction control] - this is where it really turns into a turd.
It will then slowly return to normal.
By this point you've wasted a lot of time and lost a lot of ground.
Do the S/Charged cars react in a similar manner?
I'm *guessing* they will.

When you launch in a race,you want to be right at the *edge of losing traction*,not backing away a "safe distance"[as predetermined by the factory].
What I'm thinking of is a system where you manually set the boost rise rate according to what you feel is best for the car.
You could leave the factory system on for the street or turn it off - whatever you feel - and still have some form of control.
The really fast turbo guys use some form of this control.
I'm just wondering if we could do something cheap and easy for the G/P's?
I do have a system in mind.
It will be cheap,easy to use and should be quite effective.

One other thing:
I'm wondering if you guys see any lean cylinders,say the middle ones on either front or rear banks?
After looking at the LIM for the S/D'd cars,I wonder if this is the case?
I know the G/N's have a problem with the #6 cylinder running lean due to the intake manifold design of their LIM's.
Is this a problem for you guys.

Any feedback is appreciated.

_________________
2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

This is why the PCM does NOT control the boost in the Cutty. Torque management is gone as well. I know this is of little to no real value to you, but just my little bit of input.

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One Big Ass Mistake America

Sounds like you choose to control traction yourself and leave the computer out of it.
Not a bad idea if you're a good driver and it sounds like you know what you're doing.
Do you have much trouble getting a good launch or is wheelspin still a bit of a problem when the boost comes up at low speeds?

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2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

When you talk about the BBV solenoid you mean when the tires are spinning the blower wont put out any boost correct? I noticed this when in a huge snow storm last winter. My car is horrible in the snow.

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2009 Pontiac G8 GT- Roto-Fab Intake, Roto-Fab Radiator cover, Superchips Cortex Tune, Tinted Tail lights, Corsa Cat-Back Exhaust, Tinted side markers, Painted GXP Diffuser, Tinted Reflectors, Painted Grilles.

Once I got the hang of it, and WANTED to maintain traction, it isn't a big deal. On the street, I don't care too much if I get wheelspin. But, at the track, it only took three launches to get it down. I got a 2000rpm launch, and was WOT before the 60' mark with just that hint of spin. It was great. I think I can get more out of it, but now, the engine setup is going to change, and so are the tires, so I'll have to practice again.

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One Big Ass Mistake America

Eeyup,that's old school.
I guess you've mastered the art of controlling the throttle to control boost output.
Have you noticed any lean cylinders when under boost?

_________________
2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

I'm not sure if the computer takes all the boost away but it cuts some to lessen the power of the car when spinning. You can just disconnect the solenoid so the BBV is completely vacuum controlled.

_________________
00 GTP Daytona

The only way to bypass the that is to disable the traction control, then the boost will be restored and you will be spinning 1 wheel.

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2009 Pontiac G8 GT- Roto-Fab Intake, Roto-Fab Radiator cover, Superchips Cortex Tune, Tinted Tail lights, Corsa Cat-Back Exhaust, Tinted side markers, Painted GXP Diffuser, Tinted Reflectors, Painted Grilles.

Have you guys seen how some of the M112's are ported for the Mustangs/Lightnings? Would there be an efficiency benefit if we did something similar with an M90? I know we don't have near as much to work with, but maybe someone brave could try it...

Here is a pic of a guy on GPF that had a shop of some sort port his for him, and this is what they decided to do. He posted that the car sounded "ugly", but hasn't driven it yet.

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'97 GTP: 9.5:1 Diamonds, XP'd, 3.4, Shiny Headers, Ported S/C and Heads, N*, HPTuners
Coming Up: Intercooling of some sort...

I see you're catching on.
You've spotted something,but you're not sure what they did or why.
I'll give you guys a hint: It has to do with my previous questions about lean cylinders and the job[s] of a phenolic plenum spacer.

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2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

I'm guessing part of it is to allow more air to the rearward cylinders...

Can we do something like that to ours, or will it create a lean condition in cylinders 5 and 6 / be useless for efficiency?

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'97 GTP: 9.5:1 Diamonds, XP'd, 3.4, Shiny Headers, Ported S/C and Heads, N*, HPTuners
Coming Up: Intercooling of some sort...

Good question.
I'm not really sure about the S/C'd engine's A/F distirbution on a stock,unported blower.
If you look at the stock LIM,you'll see two intake runners partially blocked by the overhead surface of the LIM [IIRC].
I'm guessing that's the end that's nearest the widest part of the S/Charger outlet.
The "overhang" stops excess air from directly entering the two nearest runners.
If you open up the outlet at one end and leave the LIM alone,does the extra flow *tend* to go to the two obstructed runners or does the air tend to average itself between the four nearest runners leaving the farthest two under the narrow part of the outlet slot short of air and running rich?
Maybe that will explain what you're seeing in the pics you posted.

_________________
2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

I've got a spare blower housing laying around that I can mess with, so I may do some paper experiments with it.

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'97 GTP: 9.5:1 Diamonds, XP'd, 3.4, Shiny Headers, Ported S/C and Heads, N*, HPTuners
Coming Up: Intercooling of some sort...

I modified a pic from wbody store.


The inside of the case goes down close to the red line, so why couldn't we add a port something like the blue area I created?

I see this being beneficial particularly to the intercooled crowd.

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'97 GTP: 9.5:1 Diamonds, XP'd, 3.4, Shiny Headers, Ported S/C and Heads, N*, HPTuners
Coming Up: Intercooling of some sort...

I like it.
Now you're thinking.
I would be sure to leave about 3/4 -1" between the new opening and the peak of the old one.
That should help maintain dimensional integrity of the case.
I read on the thread where the guy's G/Friend's car melted the plug on #4.
It was stated that #4 on the Gen 3 blowers [IIRC-and most likely the center two cylinders] tend to run hot [read lean].
After looking at the design of the manifold and the outlet shape on the blower,I half suspected this would be the case.
The idea is that when you over boost the engine,you'll blow something because the stock computer can't handle the parameters.
You show up at the dealer's with blown headgaskets on #4 and they KNOW what you did,even if you clear the computer and change the pulley back.
GM pulled the same BS on the Grand Nationals with #6 cylinder.
To cure that condition,a lot of guys run a "Power Plate" from Jason Cramer at RJC racing [ http://www.rjcracing.com/RJC_Buick_Prod ... plate.html ].
You sound like the kind of guy that understands when all the cylinders are doing the same amount of work,the engine tends to pull better than the sum of it's total individual cylinders.
That's called "synergy" and it makes for strong running engines.
Maybe I should write a post about engine breathing dynamics for the guys who don't really see where all this matters?

_________________
2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

this thread is full of win and info i love reading this

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92 LeBaron Convert: Turbo 3L 97 Grand Prix GT 4dr "Frankenstein": L67 4t65 swap
97 Grand Marquis: Summer DD 99 Grand Prix GTP: Top Swap Beater

I think I can speak for eveyone posting on this thread so far and say .. glad you're enjoying it.
Stick around,it's going to get a LOT better.

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2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

We do have a way to skew any individual cylinder's fueling by a small percentage within HP Tuners, so even if we cannot create something similar to the power plate, we can add a bit of fuel to the center two cylinders, or take away some from the other four. But, then I feel we might have an unbalanced power plant (maybe we already have one and don't quite realize it).

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'97 GTP: 9.5:1 Diamonds, XP'd, 3.4, Shiny Headers, Ported S/C and Heads, N*, HPTuners
Coming Up: Intercooling of some sort...

this is true ZZP did this for the can tune on top swap cars. mainly becuase the center cylanders have a problem cooling. they also added fuel to the rear bank as well.

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92 LeBaron Convert: Turbo 3L 97 Grand Prix GT 4dr "Frankenstein": L67 4t65 swap
97 Grand Marquis: Summer DD 99 Grand Prix GTP: Top Swap Beater

While it's nice to see they can compensate for lean/rich running cylinders,it's always better to get the A/F ratios the same for all cylinders.
That of course involves the intake side and exhaust sides of the cylinder.
It looks like the S/C'd guys have the exhaust side figured out as best they can,but the intake side still needs some work.
The reason I pointed out the Power Plate was to illustrate how much diparity there can be in a seemingly "scienced out" factory inlet system.
To see an example of the stock G/N throttle body/dog house [upper intake],go here:

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/

Navigate to Tech Pictures/Instruction - Plenums by John Perrins

You can see where the air enters the upper plenum and maybe see how the air "overshoots" towards the back of the lower plenum.
That's a lot of what makes #6 run lean on those cars.
If you look at the Power Plate,you might see similarities [in principle] between the plate and the opening in the bottom of the super charger.
Just remember that when you add air to one area,you *tend* take air from other areas.
The plenum only has so much volume to feed the entire engine's needs at any given RPM/boost level.
Anybody ever read their plugs after a boosted run and if so,what did you see?

Getting to the Phenolic spacer,I can see how it would keep LIM heat out of the blower.
I can also see how the extra plenum volume it adds might help high RPM power and maybe help with the airflow distribution as well.
Too much plenum volume can *tend* make a boosted engine lazier at low RPM's just as too much intake runner can.

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2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!

Nice work! I'm not sure if something similar could be worked out for the 3800's intake manifold. The factory opening sits right in the middle of the LIM, and when we add intercoolers, we cut out the portion by cylinders 5 and 6. This leaves 1 and 2 with the least amount of direct airflow. If we add a larger blower, like a MP112, we can open up the LIM in both directions and get closer to equal airflow. Or, if there were some sort of plate, like the one you showed us earlier, Kid, that could shield the cylinders receiving 'too much' air and allow for equal airflow without creating a significant restriction. Other than those two options, I think we'd be left with completely redesigning a LIM for these cars.

EDIT: Brainstorm! What if we were to design a 'spacer' that would redirect the air going to each cylinder by porting out the LIM almost completely from the top side, and having this 'spacer' actually be an insert that sits down into the LIM to act as the re-director.

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'97 GTP: 9.5:1 Diamonds, XP'd, 3.4, Shiny Headers, Ported S/C and Heads, N*, HPTuners
Coming Up: Intercooling of some sort...

Glad you liked the pics....and thanks.
I'm looking at the stock S/C'd LIM and from what I see,it looks like 1&2 are already partially shielded by an overhead "roof".
That leads me to believe that 3&4 [if I'm looking at this right] would seem to have the most direct access to the blower's output.
Opening up the narrow end of the blower should allow for more air to get to the other end of the plenum.
That's where I would start working before I started putting any plates under the blower to redirect the air.
Your extra hole seems to be a good way to do this.
As to the jagged corners on the wide end,I would just round out the corners in concert with the new added hole on the narrow end....maybe widening the the top of the narrow end too.
Just don't go crazy when you do it.
Logically if you open up the wide end of the slot the traditional way,you're going to have to compensate at the narrow end as well to try and balance the output.
Do have any "paper openings" drawn up yet?
I curious to see what you have in mind.

_________________
2005 GT owner [Non S/C] with a "big DIC".
Two years later and I still love the car.
Thanks Pontiac...Bleen is keen!