i have a near stock l26, tstat and fwi installed and soon to be hptuned, but my question is i would like to do some internal upgrading either cams, rollers or both with out ported heads,but i would like a nice setup for the right price and i'll be purchasing a hvIII, and pacesetter headers soon also

Go with rollers and hv3 IMHO. Headers will kill your lower end torque

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Why have more money than brains? Cuz RACE CAR :

Cam or Rockers, not both. IMHO cam is more trouble than it is worth in a N/A

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04 GTT - Retired
Best ET 13.016
Best Trap 115.56 MPH

Ditto on both posts. Rockers are the way to go on N/A cars especially if you're planning on keeping it N/A down the road. HV3 will help out a lot, but again as I mentioned before and now Anthony has mentioned, headers will kill your low end power. Someone people may not be bothered by that, but I personally hate DDing a car that has LESS low end torque than stock. Sounds like bassakwards logic to me unless you drive at 3000+ rpms at all time. And as Dave said, it's one or the other with cams or rockers, you physcially can't do both.

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

Before we get scolded.... it is possible to run up to a 1.7 rocker on alot of the aftermarket cams. I just know someone is going to jump us on this if we leave it alone.

_________________
04 GTT - Retired
Best ET 13.016
Best Trap 115.56 MPH

Haha, I was waiting for someone to catch that. Good point, but then again if you going to mod, go big or go home right? haha, 1.7 is childs play (and only .1 more than stock). So okay, it is physically possible to do a 1.7 on a cam, but why waste your time and money.

From ZZP just to add something to this thread:
1.6 is the stock ratio.
1.7 will add some lift to whatever cam you are running. (people will run these with the smaller cams if they add ported heads)
1.8 ratio is intended for stock cams with higher mileage valve springs(or low lift aftermarket cam with ported heads).
1.84 ratio is the highest ratio that you can run on the stock valve springs.
1.9 ratio is for stock cams with aftermarket valve springs & retainers.
1.95 is the most aggressive ratio for a stock cam and obviously requires aftermarket valve springs & retainers.

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

so what kind of rockers(compression) should i go with and include everything i would need for this rocker, and what are some suggested upgrades to help with low end without s/c or t/c, i would like to get it in the 14's or lower without those

You could get the ER roller rockers from zzp. They have a split ratio for intake and exhaust valves and apparently were designed just for the N/A engines. Other than that, I honestly don't have too much experience in the valvetrain department with these N/A engines.

And rockers aren't measured in compression. They are measured in a ratio of how far the valve opens as compared to how far the cam pushs on the pushrod. So a 1mm movement on the pushroad would equal 1.6mm of valve opening (units are accurate just using an example).

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

I run 1.84 rollers on stock springs. Plan to change over to a heavier spring, but these have done the job both N/A and boosted.

_________________
04 GTT - Retired
Best ET 13.016
Best Trap 115.56 MPH

how about the yella terra aluminum rockers 1.9 with 105# springs and new retainers for $550

-- Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:10 pm --

what can i do to help the low end without s/c or t/c my car

Here's a whole big writeup from ZZP on rockers on the N/A motors, specifically thier ER rockers, but still they have dyno sheets to compare the stock vs ER vs 1.9. Interesting read for what it's worth.

http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/Hi ... ussion.doc

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

i dont have a program to open the link

That's an awsome study sheet. Thanks for finding that.

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Fast.Loud.Shiny

Go 1.9 with LS6 springs, viton seals and locks.

90# LS6 springs have less seat pressure which makes it easier on the timing chain and higher open pressure than the 105's so they in essence protect against valve float more.

Wingman is running headers, HV3, and 1.9's and was somewhere in mid 15's if I remember right.

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GPDIY - For All Your DIY Needs
VS CAM|3.4|HEADERS|FWI|42.5#|HPT|6000k LOWS|8000k FOGS|

I am using ER rockers with the HV3. You will not be disappointed with that set up. I daily drive mine with this set up and like the feel of the combination.

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1999 GT|SLP CAI|Borla Catback| Shift kit|18" Koblenz|GMPP Lowering|GMPP handling|Blk Headlights|ER Rcokers|HV3|HV TB http://www.fquick.com/The_Guz

^^I've never driving a car with that setup but from what I've heard, read, and the basic science behind it seems to point to that being a very good set up for N/A cars. I don't know how Wingman's Impala is, but I wouldn't imagine that he's making any sort of low end torque with 1.9's, headers, and an HV3 but I'm sure he's making a very respectable amount of power up high.

If you really want to do some head work, Anthony is the guy to talk to. His GT build with stage 1 heads and rockers was pretty sweet but never really did hear what the results were from it other than his 1/8 times didn't change due to having headers.

Anthony's Build Thread (Hope you don't mind Resident Ricer)
3800-engine-l36-l26-f17/malefic-s-valve-train-overhaul-in-progress-w-video-t20708.html

And not to be a Debbie Downer, but 14's might be a little tricky with an N/A car that weights 3500lbs without some major work. Most of the S/C guys on here are in 14 sec range.

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

thanks for the advise everyone but i still didn't get an answer to my second question, what can i do to improve my low end performance

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one, but there's not really anything in particular you can do to "improve" low end power other than tuning of course. The goal is to choose mods that won't hurt your low end power but give you power higher in the band. Some mods will help low end torque slighly while increasing high rpm hp (intake, tune, some rockers (ER's, 1.7, and 1.84 should okay), ported heads, etc), while some other mods will take power off the lower end of the band and push it up into the high rpm (high ratio rockers (1.84+), headers, HV3 takes a little off the low end but not much). So bascially just try not to open up your exhaust too much and keep trying to get as much air and fuel into the engine as possible.

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

how about Gear ratio conversion kit on zzp

I totally didn't even know ZZP sold that, but dang, that is pretty cool. The 04+ N/A cars got hosed in the fact that they didn't get the 3.29 gears like the 03- GT's got. So yeah, changing the gearing from 3.05 to 3.29 help out quite a bit and 3.69 would help out even more, but highway cruising would be at a higher RPM so mpg would go down.

You could always just top swap, be in the high 13's and call it a day and spent about 1/10 as much money as compared to building up an N/A motor.

Also, a 2.5" DP and a Plog (no longer sold but could get one used) or ported exhaust manifolds would help out your N/A build.

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

Don't wanna thread jack but when I do my top swap is it good to do a cam ? Or just leave it alone ...and changing my gears to 3.29 get me to the 13s mark with a shift kit and a HP or dhp tune ?

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TOP SWAPPED-LS6springsXPcam3.4MPS-SD'sCustomDHPtuneMsdCustom painted/polished genV SSCsGXPforged alcoasSPOgrilles/spoiler/SElip/GMPPhandling
14.02@100 2.294-60'
L32Swap 13.7@102 O.o

you sad not to open my exhaust now your saying to get a pem and 2.5 dp and plog

Not open it up much i.e. don't do headers on a N/A engine. If you going to be putting more air into the combustion chamber you obviously need a way to get it out. There's a huge difference between running headers and a 3" DP as compared to ported manifold or Plog and a 2.5" DP. You can open up the exhaust on an N/A car within reason. Too much and you will lose low end power, but open it up just enough and you will gain high end power and not hurt your low end power. It's all about fluid dynamics... Darn you college classes and actually being useful in the real world

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"

3.29 gears, VS cam, headers, and 3.8 pulley - 14.25 at 99.40mph with 22* of timing was my best time before i put the 3.4 on(havent got it to the track yet and prob wont till next season.)

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GPDIY - For All Your DIY Needs
VS CAM|3.4|HEADERS|FWI|42.5#|HPT|6000k LOWS|8000k FOGS|

You lucky duck with your Comp G and you're 3.29's from factory.

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Dubs:00 VW GTI VR6, Low and Slow 91 VW GTI 8v, Shave the Bay!! 91 VW Cabriolet 8v, bitch Basket
GP's:04 GP GT, Past now G-Ma's Girlfriend's 97 GP GT, "Project Pink Power"