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 Post subject: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:09 am 
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I flipped my motor mounts today, took roughly 10 minutes to do. I thought this would be the solution to the KR that I sometimes see. This KR comes and goes and does not increase with rev's. It will appear as blips of .01-1 degree of KR when lightly going off from a stop. Sometimes it will appear right when I start the car and I will see obscene amounts of KR (in the 12-15*) range when just driving regular conditions on the street. Is this maybe a trans/tq converter thing or should I be looking into motor mounts being the case? This KR appears when the S/C belt is off and has nothing to do with the pulley size. Even with S/C belt off I see KR at shifts at WOT.

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Last edited by Deathwish99 on Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:42 pm 
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What does your AFR look like?

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 Post subject: Re: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:23 pm 
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This is probably a long shot. But have you ever messed with the knock sensor itself? If you have a torque wrench look up the specs on the service manual and make sure they are tightened correctly. If the sensor is too loose it will allow vibrations to shake the piezoelectric crystal inside the knock sensor which will create more voltage than it should be. Also if the sensor is too tight there will be an extra squeeze on the crystal which will also create more voltage than what should be there.

Like I said it is a long shot but It's always worth a check.

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The following people have thanked the author Dthreap for this post Deathwish99 (Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:12 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:38 am 
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Where is the knock sensor? I have also been having struggles with KR.

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 Post subject: Re: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Found the knock sensors. The front one is located under the exhaust manifold. It is located on the right (passenger side) and takes a 22mm. The bolt has a clip on it and the rear is located on the opposite side of motor under rear exhaust manifold (same setup).

Anyway, I tightened that down to ~ 14-20 tq lb is this too much or too little? I didn't go much farther from what it was because I'm afraid I may break the sensor. I noticed maybe a slight decrease in KR but it is still there none the less. Mostly it appears on cold start ups and will randomly appear when launching and shifts (launching normally or WOT). It usually comes as 0.01-1* kr lately and goes away with after shift or launch. Thoughts still?

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Last edited by Deathwish99 on Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Glad you found them, I just woke up and was getting ready to pm ya haha. Both knock sensors should be tq'd down to 14 ft lbs or 19 nm.

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 Post subject: Re: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:11 pm 
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I don't have a real accurate torque wrench so I was attempting to guess what was roughly around that area. I read a couple of firebird forums that have the 3800 (i believe) and they stated that the knock sensors should be at around 14 ft lbs.

My second knock sensor (rear, bank 2) doesn't give a reading on the aeroforce, is this normal? It was like -17* and I also checked the 3rd KR just to make sure it wasn't reading there and nothing is. Does the KR sensor from the front and back work together to show a reading on the first aeroforce "Knock Retard 1" scan or are they suppose to display on both 1 & 2?

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Last edited by Deathwish99 on Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Still a bit of KR
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:42 pm 
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Im not sure on the rear one to showing up because my aeroforce doesn't number them and they don't vary but here is the description from the service manual.

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This knock sensor (KS) system uses one or 2 broadband one-wire sensors. The sensor uses piezo-electric crystal technology that produces an AC voltage signal of varying amplitude and frequency based on the engine vibration, or noise, level. The amplitude and frequency are dependant upon the level of knock that the KS detects. The control module receives the KS signal through a signal circuit. The KS ground is supplied by the engine block through the sensor housing.

One way the control module monitors the system is by output of a bias voltage on the KS signal wire. The bias voltage creates a voltage drop that the control module monitors and uses to help diagnose KS faults. The KS noise signal rides along this bias voltage, and due to the constantly fluctuating frequency and amplitude of the signal, will always be outside of the bias voltage parameters.

Another way the control module monitors the system is by learning the average normal noise output from the KS. The control module learns a minimum noise level, or background noise, at idle from the KS and uses calibrated values for the rest of the RPM range. The control module uses the minimum noise level to calculate a noise channel. The control module uses this noise channel, and the KS signal that rides along the noise channel, in much the same way as the bias voltage type does. As engine speed and load change, the noise channel upper and lower parameters will change to accommodate the normal KS signal.

In order to determine which cylinders are knocking, the control module only uses KS signal information when each cylinder is near top dead center (TDC) of the firing stroke. If the control module has determined that knock is present, it will retard the ignition timing to attempt to eliminate the knock. The control module will always try to work back to a zero compensation level, or no spark retard. An abnormal KS signal will fall within the noise channel or will not be present. KS diagnostics are calibrated to detect faults with the KS circuitry inside the control module, the KS wiring, or the KS voltage output.

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